>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY. "

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> I WOULD SAY THAT WITHIN TWO WEEKS, MAYBE, TWO WEEKS, MAYBE THREE -- >> ENDING HIS WAR ON IRAN, QUITTING NATO, THE PRESIDENT MULLS IT ALL.

BUT, WHO WILL PAY THE PRICE?

FORMER STATE OFFICIAL JOHN ALTMAN JOINS ME ON THE HARD CHOICES.

> >> THEN -- >> I SEE ONLY BENEFITS FOR RUSSIA.

>> A WIN FOR PUTIN AS THE WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST COMPLICATES UKRAINE'S FIGHT FOR ITS SURVIVAL.

I SPEAK TO FOREIGN MINISTER.

> >> PLUS -- >> THE LINE SEPARATING HOUSE FROM UNHOUSED, IS MUCH MORE POROUS THAN MANY OF US WOULD LIKE TO ACKNOWLEDGE.

>> WORKING AND HOMELESS IN AMERICA, HOW ECONOMIC INSECURITY AND HOUSING INSTABILITY ARE PUSHING SOME AMERICAN FAMILIES TO THE BRINK.

> >> AND -- >> [ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> SURVIVING A FIRE AT EVIN PRISON, WHAT A NEW DOCUMENTARY TELLS US ABOUT THE PLIGHT OF IRAN'S POLITICAL PRISONERS.

>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU!

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN NEW YORK.

PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYS THE IRANIAN PRESIDENT IS NOW ASKING FOR A CEASE-FIRE.

HE SAYS THE NUCLEAR THREAT FROM IRAN HAS BEEN DEALT WITH.

HE IS ALSO TELLING ALLIES IT IS UP TO THEM TO REOPEN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ AND HE SUGGESTED TO A BRITISH NEWSPAPER THAT HE IS CONSIDERING LEAVING NATO.

IS IT JUST ANOTHER DAY OF THIS TRUMP PRESIDENCY, WHERE ALLIES ARE TREATED NOT AS FRIENDS, BUT FOES, AND GUESSING THE PRESIDENT'S NEXT MOVE WOULD BE A FOOL'S ERRAND?

THE AMERICAN POPE LEO IS NOW WEIGHING IN, AS WELL.

>> I HAVE TOLD THE PRESIDENT, PRESIDENT TRUMP, HE RECENTLY STATED HE WAS LOOKING TO END THE WAR, HOPEFULLY, HE IS LOOKING FOR AN OFFRAMP.

HOPEFULLY, HE IS LOOKING FOR A WAY TO DECREASE THE AMOUNT OF VIOLENCE, OF BOMBING, WHICH WOULD BE A SIGNIFICANT CONTRIBUTION TO REMOVING THE HATRED THAT IS BEING CREATED AND THAT IS INCREASING, CONSTANTLY, IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND ELSEWHERE.

SO, I WOULD CERTAINLY CONTINUE TO GIVE THIS CALL TO ALL LEADERS OF THE WORLD, TO SAY, COME BACK TO THE TABLE, TO DIALOGUE.

LET'S LOOK FOR SOLUTIONS TO THE PROBLEMS.

LET'S LOOK FOR WAYS TO REDUCE THE AMOUNT OF VIOLENCE WE ARE PROMOTING.

>> A RARE AND SIGNIFICANT PERSONAL REBUKE DURING HOLY WEEK.

IT HAS BECOME INCREASINGLY CLEAR AS THIS WAR GRINDS ON THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP, IN HIS OWN WORDS, RELIES ON HIS FEELINGS AND ACCORDING TO ACTIO'S, SOME TRUMP AIDES AND ALLIES SAY HE IS MOSTLY IMPROVISING, RATHER THAN FOLLOWING ANY CLEAR PLAN.

AND YET, IRAN, LIKE SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM SAYS, THAT IS THE PLAN, FOR YOU NOT TO HAVE A CREW.

WHAT WOULD BE NEXT?

FORMER STATE OFFICIAL JOHN ALTMAN IS JOINING ME FROM WASHINGTON.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

YOU KNOW, IN THIS INCREDIBLY SERIOUS GLOBAL STATE OF AFFAIRS, COMMITTING YOUR TROOPS AND COMMITTING ESSENTIALLY THE WORLD TO WAR, WHAT YOU MAKE OF WHAT I LAID OUT?

THIS IMPROVISATIONAL APPROACH TO WHAT SEEMS TO BE GOING ON?

>> WELL, I THINK THE PRESIDENT HAS A LOT OF INSTINCTS, THE PRESIDENT TRUSTS HIS INSTINCT.

WHENEVER I TALK TO PEOPLE IN THE WHITE HOUSE, THE PHRASE I KEEP HEARING THEM USE IS "PRESERVING THE PRESIDENT'S OPTION AUDI. "

THE PRESIDENT ALWAYS SEEMS TO BE LOOKING FOR ANOTHER ADVANTAGE, ANOTHER OPENING.

THE CHALLENGE, IS THAT IT BECOMES HARD TO STAFF HIM BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHERE HE IS TRYING TO GO.

IT KEEPS ADVERSARIES OFF BASE BUT ALSO KEEPS OUR ALLIES OFF- BASE, BECAUSE IF YOU ARE A COUNTRY IN EUROPE, YOU ARE A COUNTRY IN EAST ASIA, YOU WANT TO HELP UNITED STATES.

IT'S HARDER TO DO BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT SURE WHAT THE GOALS ARE.

SO, I THINK IN SOME WAYS, THE PRESIDENT IS REALLY HELPING HIMSELF BECAUSE IT KEEPS THE ADVERSARIES OFF BALANCE.

BUT, THE PRESIDENT IS HURTING HIMSELF BECAUSE IT MAKES IT HARDER FOR BOTH HIS TEAM AND HIS ALLIES TO ACT IN WAYS THAT ULTIMATELY WILL HELP HIM ACCOMPLISH WHAT HE WANTS TO ACCOMPLISH.

>> SO, THE VERY LATEST IS THAT TRUMP IS CLAIMING THAT THE IRANIAN PRESIDENT IS ASKING FOR A CEASE-FIRE, THAT HE WILL CONSIDER THAT, IN HIS POSTINGS, WHEN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ IS REOPENED.

OF COURSE, "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL" IS REPORTING THAT TRUMP HAS TOLD AIDES THAT HE IS ACTUALLY WILLING TO LEAVE, AND THIS, PERHAPS DECLARE VICTORY WITHOUT THE STRAIT BEING OPENED, AND LEAVING THAT TO THE ALLIES, WHERE HE IS ESSENTIALLY JUMP DUMPING ON.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

DO YOU SEE ANY EMERGING STRATEGY FOR DECLARING AN END?

AND DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHETHER THE IRANIANS ARE ACTUALLY ENGAGING AND ASKING FOR A CEASE-FIRE?

>> I DON'T KNOW IF THE IRANIANS ARE ASKING FOR A CEASE-FIRE.

MY GUESS IS THAT THE IRANIANS ARE TRYING TO EXPLORE WHAT THE OPTIONS ARE.

MY GUESS ALSO IS THAT THE PRESIDENT IS LIKELY TO SAY, "I INTEND TO CONTINUE OPERATING FOR A WHILE. "

"BUT, THERE IS AN END TO THIS, IF THE IRANIANS MAKE A DEAL BEFORE THIS ENDS, THEN GOOD THINGS CAN HAPPEN.

IF THE IRANIANS DON'T MAKE A DEAL BEFORE IT ENDS, THEN I WILL DO SOMETHING INCREDIBLY DESTRUCTIVE ON MY WAY OUT THE DOOR. "

TO ME, THERE ARE A WHOLE SERIES OF QUESTIONS ABOUT, WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?

NOT ONLY IN TERMS OF REOPENING THE STRAIT, BUT ALSO IN TERMS OF, WHETHER THE UNITED STATES BACKS OUT OF THIS WAR, DOES ISRAEL BACK OUT OF THE WAR?

THE U. S. AND ISRAEL HAVE BEEN OPERATING INCREDIBLY CLOSELY FROM BEFORE THIS WAR STARTED, PLANNING TOGETHER, TARGETING TOGETHER, WORKING IN INTELLIGENCE, ALL OF THOSE THINGS.

WHEN THE UNITED STATES DECIDES IT'S OVER, IS ISRAEL IN AGREEMENT WITH THAT?

DOES ISRAEL CONTINUE OPERATING?

IF ISRAEL IS CONTINUING OPERATING FROM AN IRANIAN PERSPECTIVE, THEN THE WAR IS STILL GOING ON.

AND I WOULD EXPECT THAT THE IRANIANS, IF THEY CAN'T GET SOME KIND OF DEAL, ARE GOING TO GET SOME KIND OF LOW-LEVEL HARASSMENT OF TRAFFIC IN THE STRAIT, AND PERHAPS SOME OF THE NEIGHBORS.

SO, THE UNITED STATES MAY SAY, "WE ARE DONE.

BUT, NOBODY ELSE MAY FEEL THIS IS OVER. "

AND THAT CREATES A CHALLENGE BECAUSE THERE IS THE SENSE THAT THE UNITED STATES STARTED THIS AND IS JUST WALKING AWAY, IN MANY CASES, IN THE VIEW OF MANY, LEAVING EVERYBODY WORSE OFF BEFORE THAN THEY WERE BEFORE HAND.

>> I WANT TO COME BACK TO THE SPECIFICS OF THE STRAIT AND HOW IT WOULD BE OPENED, AND WHAT WOULD BE A REASON TO LEAVE.

BUT, HE DID MENTION ISRAEL AND WHETHER IT WOULD HAVE THE SAME GOAL OF THE UNITED STATES, BUT YOU HAVE ALSO WRITTEN ABOUT IT, AND ESSENTIALLY, THE TITLE IN THE NEWSPAPER WAS, "AMERICA ESSENTIALLY FOLLOWING THE ISRAELI WAR PLAN. "

YOU HAVE WRITTEN, "THIS CLOSE ALIGNMENT COMES WITH COSTS THAT ARE NOT FULLY APPRECIATED.

THE UNITED STATES IS ALIGNED WITH ISRAELI WAR AIMS WITHOUT A CLEAR STRATEGY TO ACCOMPLISH THEM.

WHAT WAS ONCE A WIN-WIN HAS THE MARKINGS OF A LOSE-LOSE.

FUTURE ADMINISTRATIONS, THEY FIND THEMSELVES SPENDING YEARS PICKING UP PIECES OF AN ALLIANCE THAT THEY CONCLUDE GREW TOO CLOSE. "

SO, JUST DETAIL A LITTLE BIT WHAT KIND OF COSTS YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, AND HOW IS THE U. S. MORE ALIGNED WITH ISRAELI TACTICS?

>> SO, THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL PLAN TOGETHER FOR THIS WAR IN A WAY THAT THE U. S. HAS NEVER REALLY PLANNED WITH AN ALLY SINCE IT WORKED WITH THE BRITISH IN WORLD WAR II.

WE WERE REALLY OPERATING HAND AND GLOVE WITH EACH OTHER.

THE CONCERN, TO MY MIND, IS THAT THE ISRAELIS HAVE ADOPTED A STRATEGY IN THE MIDDLE EAST THAT SUGGESTS THEY ARE ALWAYS ON A WAR FOOTING.

THEY ALWAYS FEEL THEY HAVE TO BE FIGHTING.

AND THEY WILL ATTACK ADVERSARIES, DEGRADE THE ADVERSARIES' CAPABILITIES, AND THEN A FEW YEARS LATER, WHEN THE ADVERSARIES REBUILD, THE ISRAELIS ATTACK AGAIN.

THE ISRAELIS HAVE BEEN CALLING THIS FOR SEVERAL DECADES, "MOWING THE GRASS. "

THEY JUST COME IN, THEY ATTACK AGAIN, LIMITED AIMS, THE ADVERSARIES BUILD UP, THEY GO WIN AGAIN.

THAT'S NOT THE WAY THE U. S. HAS TREATED PROBLEMS AROUND THE WORLD.

THE U. S. IS TRYING TO PULL OUT OF THE MIDDLE EAST, AND MY CONCERN IS THAT, AS THE U. S. THOUGHT ABOUT DEALING WITH IRAN, THE PRESIDENT MAY BE PUSHING THE UNITED STATES INTO THIS POSITION OF "MOWING THE GRASS" ON IRAN, HAVING A WAR WITH IRAN EVERY FEW YEARS, WHICH I DON'T THINK IS IN THE U. S. INTEREST, AND I DON'T THINK IS THE WAY THE UNITED STATES HAS APPROACHED PROBLEMS IN THE PAST.

THAT CREATES A WHOLE SET OF INSECURITIES IN THE MIDDLE EAST, IN TERMS OF TRANSIT THROUGH THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, WHICH IS SO IMPORTANT, NOT JUST FOR ENERGY BUT FOR A WHOLE SERIES OF COMMODITIES AROUND THE WORLD.

I DON'T THINK THAT LEAVES THE U. S. BETTER OFF, I DON'T THINK IT LEAVES THE REGION BETTER OFF.

AND THAT WAS THE CONCERN I HAD IN WRITING THE PIECE, THAT ADOPTING THIS ISRAELI SENSE THAT, MAYBE "MOWING THE GRASS" IS OKAY, WE MAY BE FALLING INTO A PATTERN.

NOW, OF COURSE, THE ISRAELI GOAL AND THE U. S. GOAL IS, MAYBE IF WE ATTACK THE ENTIRE LEADERSHIP CADRE, THE GOVERNMENT COLLAPSES AND THERE IS NO MORE IRAN PROBLEM.

I DON'T THINK THAT WAS EVER LIKELY TO BE THE CASE.

I ALSO THINK THAT, ON THAT LINE, THE FACT IS, WE HAVE NEVER ASSASSINATED AN ENTIRE LEADERSHIP CADRE.

OF A GOVERNMENT, AS AN EFFORT TO MOVE A FOREIGN POLICY GOAL.

THAT IS WHAT WE DID IN COOPERATION WITH THE ISRAELIS.

WHETHER THAT TURNS OUT TO BE A GOOD IDEA OR A BAD IDEA IS YET TO BE SEEN.

IT DOESN'T STRIKE ME AS A VERY GOOD PRESIDENT TO BE SETTING.

>> SO, ACTUALLY, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS INDICATED THAT THEY WOULD GO BACK, HE COULD PULL OUT NOW, DECLARE VICTORY, IF THERE IS ANYTHING HE DIDN'T LIKE OR THE U. S. DIDN'T LIKE DOWN THE LINE, IT COULD BE DEALT WITH AGAIN IN THE SAME WAY.

SO, HE IS ACTUALLY, FROM THE PRESIDENTIAL MOUTH, SO TO SPEAK, PUT THAT DOWN ON THE TABLE.

SO, I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING ABOUT THAT.

COULD YOU JUST, IN --SUMMARIZE FOR US, HOW YOU WOULD OPEN STRAIT OF HORMUZ?

AND IF HE SAYS, "I'M LEAVING, IT'S UP TO YOU, ALLIES," HOW THEY WOULD OPEN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ?

IRAN SAYS IT IS UNDER ITS FULL CONTROL.

PAKISTAN IS NOW THINKING OF SECURING TRANSITS THROUGH THERE, BY MAYBE RE-FLAGGING TANKERS.

WHO CONTROLS IT?

WHO IS SOVEREIGNTY IS IT UNDER?

AND HOW WOULD YOU OPEN IT UP AGAIN?

>> WELL, THE STRANGE THING ABOUT CLOSING THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, IS EVERYBODY ALWAYS SAID, "WELL, THAT IS SORT OF A LAST-DITCH KIND OF EFFORT, IT'S SO HARD TO DO. "

AND WHAT THIS WAR HAS DEMONSTRATED IS JUST HOW EASY IT IS TO DO.

I REMEMBER SEEING FULL-PAGE ARTICLES IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" AND "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL" DETAILING ALL OF THE MINDS THAT THE IRANIANS HAD IF THEY WANTED TO CLOSE THE STRIATR, BUT THE REALITY IS, ALL THEY HAD TO DO IF THEY WANT TO CLOSE THE STRAIT IS A, "WE ARE ATTACKING SHIPS IN THE STRAIT. "

AND NOBODY WANTS TO PUT SHIPS THROUGH, ENDANGERING THE CRUISE AND THE CARGO, SO ACTUALLY, WHAT WE HAVE LEARNED FROM THIS CRISIS IS JUST HOW LOW THE THRESHOLD IS.

THE IRANIANS SAY, "WE WILL ATTACK ANYTHING THROUGH THE STRAIT.

THE STRAIT IS NOT ONLY RELATIVELY NARROW, THE SHIPPING CHANNELS IN THE STRAIT ARE NARROWER, STILL. "

THERE ARE LOTS OF WAYS FOR THE IRANIANS TO ATTACK, WHETHER THROUGH MINES, OR DRONES, OR PUTTING THINGS OFF SMALL BOATS, YOU CAN DISGUISE FISHING BOATS.

TWO ATTACK.

YOU CAN DO LIMPET MINES -- THERE ARE ANY NUMBER OF WAYS, IF THE IRANIANS DECIDE THEY WANT TO THREATEN PASSAGE THROUGH THE STRAIT, THEY CAN THREATEN PASSAGE THROUGH THE STRAIT.

AND THE PROBLEM NOW IS NOT THAT THERE IS ACTUAL MINES OR ACTUAL ATTACKS GOING ON --ALTHOUGH, THERE HAVE BEEN SOME --BUT, THE IRANIANS HAVE ANNOUNCED THEIR INTENTION TO ATTACK THINGS WORKING THROUGH THE STRAIT.

SO, PEOPLE SAY, "WELL, WE WON'T PUT THINGS THROUGH THE STRAIT. "

IT'S A VERY LOW THRESHOLD.

>> AGAIN, ABOUT THE WAR AIMS, THIS IS BEEN A CONSTANT WORRY ABOUT THE PEOPLE WATCHING IT, IN TERMS OF TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THEY ARE, BECAUSE THEY KEEP CHANGING.

HERE IS THE LATEST FROM SECRETARY OF STATE MARCO RUBIO.

>> I WILL REPEAT THEM TO YOU NOW BECAUSE WE HEAR A LOT OF TALK ABOUT, "WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE CLEAR OBJECTIVES ARE. "

HERE THEY ARE, YOU SHOULD WRITE THEM DOWN FOR NUMBER ONE, THE DESTRUCTION OF THEIR AIR FORCE PER NUMBER TWO, THE DESTRUCTION OF THE NAVY.

NUMBER THREE, THE SEVERE DIMINISHING OF THEIR MISSILE LAUNCHING CAPABILITY AND NUMBER FOUR, THE DESTRUCTION OF THEIR FACTORIES SO THEY CAN'T MAKE MORE MISSILES AND MORE DRONES TO THREATEN US IN THE FUTURE.

ALL OF THIS, SO THAT THEY CAN NEVER HIDE BEHIND IT TO ACQUIRE A NUCLEAR WEAPON.

>> AND NOTHING ABOUT THE 400 GRAMS OR KILOGRAMS OF ENRICHED URANIUM.

AND IT'S JUST --I'M SORRY, THE AIR FORCE WAS A NOTHING BURGER ANYWAY, EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT.

THE NAVY IS OKAY.

THE MISSILES --BUT, IT WAS ALWAYS ABOUT THE NUKES.

>> THE NUKES AND REGIME CHANGE, RIGHT?

>> RIGHT.

>> I MEAN, REGIME CHANGE WAS UP THERE AND THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO -- >> BUT, THIS IS A SERIOUS QUESTION.

WHAT IF THEY PULL OUT WITHOUT SOME KIND OF POSSESSION OR AGREEMENT ON THE 400 KILOGRAMS OF HIGHLY ENRICHED URANIUM?

>> SO, I HAVE TWO CONCERNS.

ONE IS, THIS HAS REALLY DEMONSTRATED, TO EVERYBODY, JUST HOW EASY IT IS FOR IRAN TO TROUBLE THE NEIGHBORHOOD.

AND IF THE U. S. PULLS OUT, LEAVING IRAN WITH THE ABILITY TO TROUBLE THE NEIGHBORHOOD, TO THREATEN NEIGHBORS, TO DO ALL THOSE THINGS, THAT IS DANGEROUS.

BUT, IT ALSO INCREASES THE BENEFIT TO THE IRANIANS OF HAVING A NUCLEAR WEAPON BECAUSE IT WILL DETER THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL FROM ATTACKING IRAN AGAIN.

SO, WHAT YOU HAVE DONE, YOU HAVE NOT ONLY NOT SOLVED THE PROBLEM, BUT YOU HAVE INCREASED THE LIKELIHOOD, THAT IRAN WOULD DECIDE TO GO AHEAD AND DEVELOP A NUCLEAR CAPABILITY THAT THEY DON'T CURRENTLY HAVE.

NOW, YOUR HOPE IS THAT THE INTELLIGENCE THAT LED TO THIS ATTACK, THAT LED TO THE TARGETING OF THE LEADERSHIP, ALL THOSE THINGS, IS GOOD ENOUGH, THAT THE IRANIANS CAN ACTUALLY DEVELOP A NUCLEAR WEAPON.

BUT, THAT IS A HOPE, AND THE REALITY IS, WHEN YOU TALK TO PEOPLE IN THE INTELLIGENCE BUSINESS, THEY WILL ALL TELL YOU, INTELLIGENCE IS NEVER AS GOOD AS YOU WISH IT WERE, AND THERE IS THE REAL POSSIBILITY THAT A DETERMINED IRAN, IF THEY REALLY WANTED TO BUILD A NUCLEAR WEAPON, COULD DO SO.

AND I THINK THE FEAR, IS THAT THIS OPERATION MAKES THIS MORE LIKELY, RATHER THAN LESS LIKELY, GIVEN THAT, PERHAPS AN EVEN MORE HARD-LINE GROUP IS NOW IN POWER, AND THEY HAVE SEEN THAT IF THEY DON'T HAVE A DETERRENT, THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS TO THEM.

>> AND IN 15 SECONDS --SO, WE COULD BE BACK TO A POSITION THAT IS WORSE THAN THE NEGOTIATIONS, WHICH EVERYBODY INVOLVED SAYS WERE LEADING TO IRANIAN CONCESSIONS ABOUT THE NUKES?

>> WE COULD BE IN A WORSE SITUATION.

THE NEIGHBORHOOD CERTAINLY FEELS LESS SECURE.

AND THERE IS NO CLARITY THAT WE ARE GOING TO HAVE ANY SORT OF NEGOTIATIONS THAT WILL LEAVE THE IRANIANS WANTING TO BEHAVE ANY BETTER THAN THEY HAVE, UP TO NOW.

>> JONATHAN ALTMAN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, INDEED, FOR YOUR EXTENSIVE KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE IN THIS REALM.

> >> THERE ARE NO REAL WINNERS IN WAR, BUT RUSSIA IS CERTAINLY BENEFITING FROM THE ESCALATING WAR ON IRAN.

WITH A TEMPORARY SUSPENSION OF OIL SANCTIONS AGAINST IT, AND PRESSURE ON PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY TO NOT HIT RUSSIA'S ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE.

THIS WEEK MARKS FOUR YEARS SINCE THE MASSACRE AT BOUTRE WHERE THE WAR CRIMES OF RUSSIA WERE LAID BARE FOR THE WHOLE WORLD TO SEE.

IT IS A STARK REMINDER OF WHAT UKRAINE IS FIGHTING FOR.

DEMETRIO WAS THE COUNTRY FOREIGN MINISTER AT THAT TIME AND HE IS JOINING ME NOW, FROM KYIV.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> IT'S GOOD TO BE WITH YOU AGAIN.

>> I GUESS, THERE IS SO MUCH GOING ON THAT IS TAKING THE ATTENTION AWAY FROM THE SURVIVAL AND THE FIGHT THAT UKRAINE IS WAGING AGAINST RUSSIA, THAT I WONDER WHAT YOU MAKE OF WHERE YOU STAND RIGHT NOW?

>> WE ARE EXACTLY IN THE SAME POSITION AS WE WERE TWO MONTHS AGO BEFORE THIS WAR STARTED IN TERMS OF THE FIGHTING.

REGULAR AIR ATTACKS, DRONE FLYING ENGAGEMENTS, HUNDREDS, THOUSANDS OF THEM PER DAY.

TWO POINTS HAVE CHANGED, AND UNFORTUNATELY, BOTH OF THEM ARE CRUCIAL.

THE FIRST ONE IS ACCESS OF UKRAINE TO INTERCEPTORS HAS BEEN, I WOULD SAY, SUSPENDED, BECAUSE OF THE WAR IN IRAN.

AND SECONDLY, RUSSIA IS MAKING MONEY ON SELLING ITS OIL AGAIN.

SO, THESE TWO --THESE TWO ELEMENTS ARE DETRIMENTAL, BUT AS FOR NOW, UKRAINE IS DEMONSTRATING RESILIENCE, STRENGTH, AND WE HOLD ON.

>> LET ME JUST ASK YOU ABOUT WHAT RUSSIA IS CLAIMING, THAT IT HAS TAKEN, I THINK WHAT THEY SAID TODAY, APPARENTLY IT HAD 99%, OR WHATEVER.

HAS IT TAKEN?

AND WHAT DOES THAT MEAN TO YOU?

>> WELL, WE HAVE TO WAIT FOR THE OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENTS OF THE UKRAINIAN ARMED FORCES.

BUT, THIS IS NOT A STRATEGIC MILITARY ADVANCEMENT.

IT IS, RATHER, A PROPAGANDA POINT, THE POINT THAT RUSSIA WILL COMMUNICATE TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND OTHER AUDIENCES ELSEWHERE IN THE WORLD, MAKING THE POINT TODAY THAT, THERE IS NO NEED TO RESIST, THEY ARE WINNING, THEY ARE GETTING WHAT THEY WANT.

I SEE MORE PR THAN REAL POLITICS IN IT.

>> I SEE.

OKAY.

SO, LET ME ASK YOU, THEN, ABOUT THE REAL, WHAT UKRAINE REALLY WANTS, AND YOU KNOW THIS MORE THAN ANYTHING ON, "A", NOT THE FORCED TO GIVE UP CHARITY IT HASN'T LOST, AND "B", SECURITY GUARANTEES.

YOU MIGHT SEE PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY JUST TWEETED AFTER VIRTUAL CONVERSATIONS WITH THE TWO AMERICAN NEGOTIATORS, KUSHNER AND WYCOFF, ALONG WITH SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM, AND IN FACT, SECRETARY-GENERAL OF NATO STANDING BY.

SO, ZELENSKYY SAYS, "I AM GRATEFUL TO EVERYBODY IN THEIR WORK IN FINDING THE RIGHT DECISIONS AND UKRAINE APPRECIATES ALL THE EFFORT AMERICA IS MAKING TO FORGE A DIGNIFIED PEACE.

WE AGREE THAT OUR TEAMS WILL REMAIN IN CLOSE CONTACT. "

AND THEY SAY THEY ARE TRYING TO STRENGTHEN THE NOTION OF THE SECURITY GUARANTEES DOCUMENT BETWEEN UKRAINE AND THE UNITED STATES, WHICH IS THE ONLY WAY, HE SAYS, TO PAVE A RELIABLE END TO THIS WAR.

WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THE EXISTING TALK AROUND SECURITY GUARANTEES, AND WHETHER YOU THINK IT WILL BE STRENGTHENED ON BEHALF OF UKRAINE?

>> I REGRET TO SAY IT, BUT I AM AFRAID YOU WILL BE SEEING MANY MORE TWEETS OF THIS KIND IN THE COMING WEEKS AND MONTHS.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY IS TRYING HARD TO KEEP EVERYTHING TOGETHER, TO MOVE TOWARDS PEACE, TOWARDS NEGOTIATED PEACE.

THE PROBLEM IS, I THINK RUSSIA HAS ZERO INCENTIVE TO MAKE PEACE, NOW.

TO MAKE PEACE, NOW.

THE UNITED STATES ARE NOT DOING ANYTHING TO CHANGE THEIR APPROACH TO PEACE, WHICH IS, AS THEY BELIEVE THE CRANE GIVES UP THE TERRITORY, THE REST OF DONBAS, RUSSIA IS GOING TO STOP, UKRAINE HAS ZERO EVIDENCE THAT WOULD MAKE A BELIEF IN THIS --BELIEVE IN THIS ASSUMPTION.

SO, IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW MANY CONVERSATIONS THERE WILL BE OR VIDEOCONFERENCES.

AS LONG AS THERE ARE NO DRIVING FORCES FOR PEACE ON THE RUSSIAN SIDE, AND FOR THE CHANGE OF ATTITUDE ON THE AMERICAN SIDE, UKRAINE WILL BE --YOU KNOW, YOUR CRANES --UKRAINE'S TWEETS WILL BE FALLING ON DEAF EARS.

>> AND WHAT ABOUT KYIV'S DESIRE?

IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY THAT RAISED THIS.

BUT, ANYWAY, THE GOVERNMENT, FOR A POTENTIAL EASTER CEASE- FIRE, ACTUALLY, IT WAS ZELENSKYY WHO TOLD REPORTERS THIS WEEK THAT HE WILL ASK NEGOTIATORS TO TRY TO PASS THAT ON TO THE RUSSIAN SIDE, AND THEY HAVE ALREADY DISMISSED IT.

THE SPOKESPERSON HAS.

BUT, IF THERE WAS A CEASE-FIRE, OR A TEMPORARY CEASE-FIRE, HOW DO YOU THINK THAT COULD HELP, OR NOT, NEGOTIATIONS?

>> YOU MAKE A CONCESSION, ONLY EITHER WHEN YOU HAVE THE MOTIVATION TO DO IT, OR YOU ARE FORCED TO DO IT.

RUSSIA HAS NEITHER.

THERE IS NO MOTIVATION TO HAVE A CEASE-FIRE, AND NO ONE IS FORCING THEM TO AGREE TO A CEASE-FIRE.

THIS IS WHY PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY'S PROPOSAL IS, OF COURSE, A VERY GOOD ONE, AND IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE, UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES.

IT SENDS A CLEAR MESSAGE TO PRESIDENT TRUMP, THAT UKRAINE WANTS PEACE.

BUT, I CAN DRAW ONLY ONE CONCLUSION FROM RUSSIA'S REFUSAL, THAT THEY ARE NOT INTERESTED IN ANY CEASE-FIRES FOR THE TIME BEING, BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE ON A GOOD TRAJECTORY.

>> TELL ME SOMETHING, DO YOU WORRY, WHEN YOU READ PRESIDENT TRUMP'S POSTS?

LIKE, RIGHT NOW, HE IS, AS YOU KNOW, VERY ANGRY WITH NATO ALLIES, BELIEVING THAT THEY SHOULD JOIN THE WAR OF CHOICE THAT HE STARTED IN ORDER TO OPEN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ?

AND HE CALLED NATO A "PAPER TIGER," THREATENED PULLING OUT.

GIVEN THAT YOU WANT TO TRUMP TO PUT PRESSURE ON PUTIN, HOW DOES TRUMP'S PERPETUAL ATTACKS AND BELITTLING OF NATO, AFFECT UKRAINE, AND AFFECT THE BALANCE OF POWER IN THIS WAR, IN YOUR WAR?

>> THE BIGGEST RISK UKRAINE IS FACING IN RELATION TO TRUMP'S MOOD TOWARD NATO, IS THAT IF PRESIDENT PUTIN DECIDES TO GRAB THE OPPORTUNITY, AND ATTACK A NATO ALLY IN EUROPE, EUROPE WILL BE SO FOCUSED ON PULLING ITSELF TOGETHER IN ORDER TO REPEL THAT ATTACK, THAT UKRAINE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO RECEIVE SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNTS OF VOLUMES OF WEAPONS FROM OUR EUROPEAN PARTNERS.

SO, WE ARE EXPERIENCING PROBLEMS WITH THE UNITED STATES, NOW.

OUR SECOND LARGEST SOURCE OF WEAPONS IS EUROPE, AND THAT ONE IS GONE, AS WELL, BECAUSE THEY WILL HAVE TO KEEP THE FOCUS ON THEIR OWN WAR.

WE WILL BE IN TROUBLE.

>> WE STARTED, LEADING INTO, AND INTRODUCING YOU AS THE FACT THAT THIS IS THE FOURTH ANNIVERSARY OF THE BOUTCHA WHICH ESSENTIALLY SHOW THE WORLD WHAT YOU WERE FIGHTING.

YOU HAD A LOT OF EU LEADERS, AND POLITICIANS, COMING TO UKRAINE OVER THE WEEKEND IN THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS, TO CONTINUE TO OFFER SUPPORT, SOLIDARITY, AND MATERIAL AID, I EXPECT.

THE SAME TIME --WELL, LET ME ASK YOU FIRST.

ARE YOU GETTING ENOUGH?

BECAUSE I KNOW YOU SAID THAT THE EU MAY BE DISTRACTED.

ARE YOU GETTING ENOUGH HELP FROM THE EU, GIVEN THAT THE U. S. IS OCCUPIED ELSEWHERE, INCLUDING THE REPORTS THAT THEY ARE DIVERTING WEAPONS, AS YOU MENTIONED IN THE BEGINNING, BUT MAYBE EVEN EVENTUALLY THAT BEING A LONG-TERM DIVERSION BECAUSE OF NEEDING TO REPLENISH THEIR OWN CUPBOARDS AND AMMUNITION AND WEAPONS.

>> EU IS DOING A LOT.

BUT, AS LONG AS THE WAR GRINDS ON, THERE WILL NEVER BE ENOUGH.

HISTORY IS RUTHLESS.

IT DOESN'T JUDGE US BY THE EFFORT.

IT JUDGES US BY THE OUTCOME, AND THE OUTCOME IS SOMETHING THAT WE ARE DISCUSSING RIGHT NOW.

IT IS THE FOURTH YEAR OF THE WAR, A YEAR OF DESTRUCTION AND ATROCITIES.

THERE IS A LONG WAY FOR EUROPE TO GO.

I THINK THAT --I DO BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE TRYING THEIR BEST, BUT THERE ARE SOME ISSUES THAT THEY HAVE TO ADDRESS IMMEDIATELY, IF THEY REALLY WANT TO BUILD UP THEIR DETERRENCE MUSCLE, AND SURVIVE WITHOUT THE BACKING OF THE UNITED STATES.

>> WELL, I AM GOING TO ASK YOU, WHAT KIND OF, YOU KNOW, MUSCLE DO THEY NEED TO BRING TO THE TABLE?

BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT THE PRESIDENT ACTUALLY SAID TO THIS ISSUE.

LET'S TAKE A LISTEN.

>> WE DO THAT ALL THE TIME, YOU KNOW?

WE HAVE TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF AMMUNITION.

WE HAVE THEM IN OTHER COUNTRIES, LIKE IN GERMANY AND ALL OVER EUROPE, WE HAVE --YOU KNOW, WE ARE PACKED, AND WE TAKE --SOMETIMES, WE TAKE FROM ONE AND WE USE FOR ANOTHER.

>> I MEAN, HE SORT OF MAKES IT SOUND AS IF IT IS, YOU KNOW, NOT A BIG DEAL.

BUT, CLEARLY, EUROPE IS WORRIED, YOU ARE WORRIED.

WHAT DOES EUROPE NEED TO DO TO FILL THIS GAP?

>> MAKE WEAPONS, AND BEGIN TO BELIEVE THAT, IF THE WAR COMES, IT WILL HAVE TO FIGHT WITHOUT THE UNITED STATES.

>> WHAT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TALKED ABOUT PUTTING PRESSURE ON RUSSIA.

NOW, YOU KNOW THAT THEY ARE CONSIDERING LETTING SOME RUSSIAN LAWMAKERS COME INTO THE UNITED STATES.

THIS IS WHAT SECRETARY OF STATE RUBIO SAID WHEN ASKED BY A JOURNALIST ABOUT THIS MOVE.

>> HAVE YOU SEEN THE INCREASE IN RUSSIAN SUPPORT FOR IRAN IN THIS WAR, AND WHY WAS NOW THE TIME FOR SANCTIONED RUSSIAN LAWMAKERS TO COME TO THE U. S. ?

>> RUSSIA IS STILL A POWERFUL COUNTRY WITH NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND IT IS IMPORTANT FOR NUCLEAR POWERS TO HAVE SOME ENGAGEMENT AT THE GOVERNMENTAL LEVEL JUST LIKE WE DO AT THE DIPLOMATIC LEVEL.

I DON'T THINK THAT WAS A MAJOR CONCESSION IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM.

>> SO, IT WAS ACTUALLY LAST WEEK THAT THEY CAME IN.

BUT, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

>> WELL, IF PRESIDENT TRUMP ROLLS THE RED CARPET IN FRONT OF PRESIDENT PUTIN ON U. S. SOIL, WHY SHOULD NOT U. S. CONGRESSMAN ROLL OUT THE RED CARPET FOR RUSSIAN MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT?

I MEAN, IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE, FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE.

>> BUT, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, SURELY, IT CHIPS AWAY AT THIS IDEA OF PUTTING PRESSURE ON RUSSIA, UNLESS YOU THINK IT PUT PRESSURE ON THESE LAWMAKERS?

>> LISTEN, I AM NOT CONCERNED WITH THE NONDELIVERY OF PATRIOT INTERCEPTORS, AND LIFTING SANCTIONS FROM RUSSIAN --FROM THE SHIPS CARRYING RUSSIAN OIL.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT MAKES A REAL DIFFERENCE IN WAR.

OF COURSE, IT'S PAINFUL, TO SEE HOW THESE GUYS SUPPORT THE RUSSIANS, SUPPORT THE CRIMES COMMITTED AGAINST CIVILIANS IN UKRAINE, IN BOUTCHA, IN PARTICULAR.

THEY ENTER THE CONGRESS, THEY GO TO THE HILL, AND THEY ARE WELCOMED.

IT IS PAINFUL.

BUT, YOU KNOW, TO AVOID SEEING SUCH THINGS, YOU HAVE TO BE STRONG, AND YOU HAVE TO BE IN A STRONG POSITION, SO NO ONE DARES TO DO THIS --TO DO THESE THINGS ANYMORE.

>> OKAY, SO, YOU ARE SOUNDING PROBABLY MORE PESSIMISTIC THAN I HAVE HEARD YOU IN A LONG TIME, AND I WANT TO KNOW, THEREFORE, IN THE LAST 30 SECONDS THAT WE HAVE, DO YOU -- LIKE, A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE LOOKING TO CHINA NOW TO HELP, INCLUDING PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY.

IS THAT A GO AHEAD, DO YOU THINK?

>> I DO STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT UKRAINE HAS TO ENGAGE WITH CHINA.

AND IT IS NO SECRET THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP, FOR EXAMPLE, ALSO BELIEVES THAT CHINA HAS TO BE ON BOARD, WHEN IT COMES TO MAKING PEACE IN UKRAINE.

BUT, I DON'T SEE WHY CHINA WOULD BE INTERESTED IN THAT EFFORT, UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES.

>> DMYTRO KULEBA, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US AND WE WILL CHECK IN WITH YOU AGAIN.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

> >> NOW, THE ECONOMIC PAIN AT HOME AND ABROAD FROM THIS WAR RISKS DRIVING MILLIONS OF AMERICANS TO FINANCIAL BREAKING POINT.

NOT ONLY THE MASSIVE SPIKE IN GAS PRICES AND FOOD PRICES, BUT THIS FOLLOWS YEARS OF HOUSING SCARCITY AND EMPLOYMENT VOLATILITY.

IN HIS NOTEBOOK, "THERE IS NO PLACE FOR US", BRIAN GOLDSTONE FOLLOWS FIVE WORKING FAMILIES AND HOW THEY ARE CHANGING THE FACE OF HOMELESSNESS, AND HE IS JOINING HARI SREENIVASAN TO DISCUSS WHY WORKING HARD NO LONGER BUYS YOU THE AMERICAN DREAM.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANK YOU.

BRIAN GOLDSTONE, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

YOUR BOOK IS TITLED "THERE IS NO PLACE FOR US: WORKING AND HOMELESS IN AMERICA".

YOU WRITE IN THERE, THAT "WORKING HOMELESS", SEEMS COUNTERINTUITIVE, AN OXYMORON.

IN A COUNTRY WHERE HARD WORK AND DETERMINATION ARE SUPPOSED TO LEAD TO SUCCESS OR AT LEAST STABILITY, THERE IS SOMETHING SCANDALOUS ABOUT THE VERY CONCEPT.

WHAT KIND OF MYTH DOES THIS PHRASE KIND OF BREAK APART?

>> YEAH, I THINK, WHEN WE SHARE THE TERM "WORKING HOMELESS" -- THE MYTH OF, FIRST OF ALL, THE AMERICAN DREAM, THAT IF YOU JUST WORK HARD ENOUGH, IF YOU JUST CLOCK ENOUGH HOURS, OKAY, YOU MIGHT NOT MAKE IT RICH, YOU MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO BUY A MANSION, BUT YOU WILL AT LEAST HAVE YOUR MOST BASIC MATERIAL NEEDS MET.

THE TERM "WORKING HOMELESS" SAYS THAT MYTH OR THAT PROMISE HAS JUST SPECTACULARLY FAILED.

IT HAS BEEN DEVASTATING, TO SEE HOW IT HAS FAILED.

IT ALSO TELLS US THAT THE LINE SEPARATING HOUSED FROM UNHOUSED IS MUCH MORE POROUS THAN MUCH OF US WOULD LIKE TO ACKNOWLEDGE.

WHAT IT SAYS IS THAT, YOU KNOW, MANY, MANY PEOPLE, MANY WORKERS IN THIS COUNTRY, ARE ONE MISSED PAYCHECK, ONE LAPSED MONTH OF CHILDCARE, ONE RENT HIKE, AWAY FROM LOSING THEIR HOME.

SO, I THINK THE TERM "WORKING HOMELESS", THAT IS PART OF WHY IT IS SO SCANDALOUS.

NOT JUST OXYMORONIC OR CONTRADICTORY, BUT REALLY, SCANDALOUS.

BECAUSE IT SAYS THAT SO MUCH OF WHAT WE TAKE FOR GRANTED AS AMERICANS, THIS IDEA THAT, HARD WORK IS THE KEY TO SUCCESS, REALLY NO LONGER HOLDS.

>> WELL, ACCORDING TO HUD, THE DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT, THE U. S. HOUSING POPULATION --HOMELESS POPULATION WAS 700,481 PEOPLE.

AND THAT IS UP FROM 2023, UP 18%.

THAT IS THE LARGEST SINGLE YEAR INCREASE.

WHAT PERCENTAGE OF UNHOUSED PEOPLE HAVE SOME KIND OF EMPLOYMENT?

>> WELL, A LOT OF THE DATA THAT WE HAVE ON THIS COMES ONLY ON HOMELESS INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE COUNTED AS OFFICIALLY HOMELESS, ACCORDING TO HUD'S DEFINITION.

SO, PEOPLE WHO ARE IN SHELTERS, OR ON THE STREET.

AND A STUDY FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO TOGETHER WITH YALE AND OTHER RESEARCHERS SHOWED THAT THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE, JUST IN THOSE SITUATIONS, WHO HAVE FORMAL EMPLOYMENT, I BELIEVE, WAS ABOUT 40%.

SO, ALREADY, A REALLY STRIKING NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO ARE JUST OFFICIALLY COUNTED.

WE DON'T HAVE DATA ON THE "INVISIBLE" HOMELESS IN AMERICA, WHO ARE EMPLOYED.

BUT, I CAN TELL YOU THAT, YOU KNOW, THESE EXTENDED-STAY HOTELS, THESE --YOU KNOW, THOSE FAMILIES WHO ARE DOUBLED UP, THEY ARE, BY NECESSITY, THEY ARE OVERWHELMINGLY PART OF THE LABOR FORCE.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU CHOSE TO FOCUS IN ON ATLANTA AND YOU INTRODUCED US TO DIFFERENT CHARACTERS AND DIFFERENT PLATES OF THEIR LIFE.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WAS INTERESTING TO ME, I SAID, "ATLANTA IS KIND OF A THRIVING CITY, I DON'T KNOW WHAT HE WOULD PICK THIS. "

AND YOU ACTUALLY GO OUT OF YOUR WAY TO SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS IS A PRODUCT OF THRIVING CITIES, NOT NECESSARILY JUST FAILING ONES.

EXPLAIN THAT?

>> FIRST OF ALL, I BASED THE BOOK IN ATLANTA BECAUSE SO MUCH OF THE COVERAGE AND REPORTING ON THE HOUSING AND HOMELESSNESS CRISIS TENDS TO BE CENTERED ON KIND OF THE PREDICTABLE COASTAL AREAS, LIKE NEW YORK CITY, L. A. , SAN FRANCISCO.

SO, IT WAS IMPORTANT TO SHOW THAT THIS CRISIS IS, BY NO MEANS, CONFINED OR REDUCIBLE TO THOSE AREAS, THAT IT TRULY IS A NATIONAL DISASTER, A NATIONAL CRISIS.

I ARGUE THAT THIS IS A CRISIS NOT OF POVERTY, BUT A CRISIS OF A VERY PARTICULAR TYPE OF PROSPERITY.

ONE THAT HAS SEEN THE WEALTHY GET RICHER, AND RICHER, AND RICHER, AND NOT JUST THE POOR AND WORKING-CLASS, BUT VAST SWATHS OF THE MIDDLE CLASS, AS WELL, STRUGGLING NOT ONLY TO REMAIN IN THE NEIGHBORHOODS THEY GREW UP IN, AS OUR CITIES REVITALIZE, AS THEY UNDERGO THIS TRANSFORMATION, WHERE WHAT USED TO BE THE INNER-CITY BECOMES A KIND OF PLAYGROUND FOR THOSE WEALTHY ENOUGH TO ENJOY ALL OF THE NEW GREEN SPACE AND AMENITIES.

IT IS NOT JUST THE POOR AND WORKING-CLASS, AND AS I SAY, MIDDLE-CLASS PEOPLE ARE BEING PRICED OUT OF THE NEIGHBORHOODS THEY GREW UP IN AND FORCED TO GO ELSEWHERE, THEY ARE INCREASINGLY BEING PUSHED OUT OF HOUSING ALTOGETHER.

>> TO THAT POINT, YOU SAID THAT THERE IS NOT, RIGHT NOW, A SINGLE STATE, METROPOLITAN AREA, OR COUNTY IN THE UNITED STATES, WHERE A FULL-TIME WORKER OWNING A LOCAL MINIMUM WAGE CAN AFFORD A TWO BEDROOM APARTMENT.

SO, IS THIS A PROBLEM ABOUT WAGES?

BECAUSE WE HAVE DIFFERENT HIGH MINIMUM WAGES IN DIFFERENT CITIES, RIGHT?

OR, IS THIS A PROBLEM WITH HOUSING AVAILABILITY?

>> THE SINGLE GREATEST PREDICTOR IN WHETHER A PARTICULAR REGION, OR CITY WILL SEE A SPIKE IN HOMELESSNESS, THE SINGLE GREATEST PREDICTOR IS THE GROWING CHASM BETWEEN WHAT PEOPLE ARE BRINGING IN, IN THEIR INCOMES, NOT JUST IN THEIR WAGES, BUT ALSO FIXED INCOME LIKE SOCIAL SECURITY, OR DISABILITY PAYMENTS, ON THE ONE HAND.

AND WHAT IT COSTS TO HAVE A PLACE TO LIVE, ON THE OTHER.

THE BIGGER THAT GAP GROWS, THE MORE HOMELESSNESS GOES UP.

IT'S VERY --IT'S VERY SIMPLE.

IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT TO SAY THAT, IT'S NOT JUST WAGES, IT'S THE NATURE OF WORK, ITSELF.

WORK, ITSELF, HAS BECOME EVERMORE VOLATILE AND INSECURE, WHERE, YOU KNOW, YOU MIGHT GET A RAISE WHERE YOU ARE NOW MAKING $12 PER HOUR INSTEAD OF EIGHT DOLLARS PER HOUR, BUT YOU ARE ONLY GIVEN 29 HOURS A WEEK AT YOUR JOB BECAUSE AT 30, YOU WOULD BE ELIGIBLE FOR BASIC BENEFITS, LIKE SICK LEAVE OR HEALTH INSURANCE.

AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT CASS, A MOTHER IN MY BOOK, EXPERIENCES, WHERE SHE WORKS AT THE ATLANTA AIRPORT, THE PRIDE AND JOY OF ATLANTA'S ECONOMY AND SHE IS GIVEN 29 HOURS A WEEK, YOU KNOW, FOR MANY WORKERS TODAY, THE GREATEST FEAR ISN'T THAT THEY WILL LOSE THEIR JOB, IT'S THAT THEIR JOB WILL NEVER PAY ENOUGH, NEVER PROVIDE ENOUGH SECURITY AND STABILITY TO KEEP THEM AND THEIR CHILDREN HOUSED.

>> MOST PEOPLE, WHEN THEY THINK ABOUT HOMELESS, THEY LITERALLY THINK OF THIS INDICATES WHERE SOMEBODY IS ON THE STREET, AND THEY ARE BEGGING FOR MONEY, AND JUST THIS VERY NOTION OF WHAT THIS BOOK IS PROVIDING TO PEOPLE IS THAT, LOOK, THAT IS NOT THE CASE.

BUT, THE IDEA OF SOME OF THE PEOPLE YOU TALK TO WHO AREN'T IN THE CENSUS NUMBERS OFFICIALLY, IS HOMELESS.

>> I WAS ASTONISHED TO FIND IN THE COURSE OF REPORTING THIS BOOK, THAT WHAT WE SEE ON THE STREET, YOU KNOW, THE TENTS, THE ENCAMPMENTS, PEOPLE ASKING FOR MONEY ON THE STREET, IS REALLY JUST THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG.

SO, ALL OF THE FIVE FAMILIES IN MY BOOK, AND NOT THE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, BUT I ARGUE, MILLIONS, OF MEN, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN JUST LIKE THEM, THEY LITERALLY DON'T COUNT.

THEY ARE IN HOTELS AND MOTELS.

THEY ARE IN THEIR CARS.

THEY ARE LIVING IN THE OVERCROWDED APARTMENTS OF OTHERS, DOUBLED UP, TRIPLED UP IN THESE APARTMENTS.

ALL OF THESE PEOPLE, THEY ARE NOT JUST WRITTEN OUT OF THE STATISTICS, AND THE NEWSPAPER HEADLINES, SAYING, "THIS IS WHAT HOMELESSNESS IS AT THIS YEAR. "

THEY ARE ALSO, I ARGUE, WRITTEN OUT OF THE VERY STORY WE TELL ABOUT HOMELESSNESS IN THIS COUNTRY.

AND, YOU KNOW, ONE PERSON IN THE BOOK, CELESTE, SHE EXPERIENCES THIS FIRSTHAND, WHEN SHE GOES TO GATEWAY CENTER, WHICH IS --EVERY CITY IN AMERICA HAS ITS OWN VERSION OF GATEWAY, WHICH IS WHERE PEOPLE GO TO SORT OF RECEIVE HOMELESS SERVICES, WHERE THEY TRY TO GET ASSISTANCE INTO HOUSING.

AND CELESTE, BECAUSE SHE AND HER CHILDREN ARE LIVING IN AN EXTENDED STAY HOTEL, PAYING, YOU KNOW, MORE THAN DOUBLE FOR THIS SQUALID, STUDIO SIZED ROOM THAN THEY WERE PAYING FOR THE APARTMENT THAT THEY WERE FORMERLY LIVING IN, BUT BECAUSE HER CREDIT SCORE HAS FALLEN BELOW A FORMAL THRESHOLD, SHE IS ESSENTIALLY LOCKED OUT OF THE FORMAL HOUSING MARKET, SHE CAN'T RENT A PLACE, AND SHE, LIKE SCORES OF OTHER FAMILIES, OR FORCED TO PAY THESE EXORBITANT FEES AT THESE HOTELS.

WHEN SHE GOES TO GET HELP, SHE IS TOLD, THAT BASICALLY, SHE IS NOT HOMELESS IN THE RIGHT WAY.

SHE DOESN'T QUALIFY FOR ASSISTANCE.

AND SHE IS TOLD THAT, YOU KNOW, IF SHE WAS ON THE STREET OR IN A SHELTER, SHE COULD GET HELP.

SHE LEAVES GATEWAY CENTER EMPTY- HANDED, BECAUSE SHE DOESN'T FIT THIS KIND OF CRUEL AND ARBITRARY DEFINITION OF HOMELESSNESS.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU ALSO PROFILE A DIFFERENT WOMAN, BRITT, WHO TAKES THE PATH THAT MOST OF US ASSUME PEOPLE WHO ARE STRUGGLING TAKE, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, APPLY FOR SECTION 8 HOUSING OR VOUCHERS, WHERE YOU PAY A SMALLER FRACTION OF WHAT THE RENT IS OWED.

WHAT HAPPENED, IN BRITT'S CASE?

>> BRITT, HER ROOTS IN ATLANTA GO BACK FIVE GENERATIONS, AND BRITT WAS ACTUALLY BORN IN PUBLIC HOUSING.

SHE WAS BORN AT A PLACE CALLED EASTLAKE MEADOWS, WHICH EVENTUALLY WAS DEMOLISHED TO MAKE WAY FOR A NEW DEVELOPMENT.

HER AND HER MOTHER WERE DISPLACED, AND BY THE TIME SHE WAS AN ADULT WITH HER OWN CHILDREN, SHE REALIZED THAT THE KEY TO REMAINING HOUSED, THE KEY TO HAVING A FUTURE IN THE CITY OF HER BIRTH, WAS REALLY TO WIN A VOUCHER LOTTERY, TO WIN THE SECTION 8 VOUCHER LOTTERY.

AND THE FACT THAT WE EVEN USE THE WORD "LOTTERY" IN RELATION TO THIS ESSENTIAL PUBLIC GOOD, THIS ESSENTIAL THING, HOUSING, I THINK, IS IT SELF, DAMMING, THAT WE HAVE ALLOWED SUCH SCARCITY TO PROLIFERATE IN THAT WAY.

BUT, SHE APPLIES FOR THE VOUCHER LOTTERY, SHE WINS, AND TWO YEARS LATER, WHEN THE BOOK OPENS, SHE HAS FINALLY GOTTEN OFF THE WAITING LIST, AND IS GIVEN A VOUCHER.

FAST-FORWARD, AFTER RECEIVING THE VOUCHER, SHE ENDS UP LOSING IT BECAUSE SHE CAN'T FIND A SINGLE LANDLORD WHO WILL ACCEPT IT.

THE VOUCHER EXPIRES.

EVEN AFTER SHE GETS AN EXTENSION TO GET MORE TIME FOR HER SEARCH.

AND, YOU KNOW, WHEN I FIRST -- WHEN I FIRST SAW THAT, I THOUGHT, "SURELY, THIS IS SOME KIND OF BIZARRE ANOMALY. "

BUT, COME TO FIND OUT, THE YEAR THAT BRITT RECEIVED HER VOUCHER, ABOUT 1800 FAMILIES IN ATLANTA RECEIVED A HOUSING VOUCHER THAT YEAR, AND MORE THAN 1100 EXPIRED BEFORE THEY COULD BE USED, BECAUSE THE FACT IS, IN GENTRIFYING CITIES, LIKE ATLANTA, WHERE THE RENTAL MARKET IS "HOT," LANDLORDS HAVE VERY LITTLE FINANCIAL INCENTIVE TO ACCEPT THESE VOUCHERS.

AND, AGAIN, THAT IS BY NO MEANS UNIQUE TO ATLANTA.

THAT IS A TREND WE ARE SEEING IN CITIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

AND THAT, AGAIN, PROVES THE ARGUMENT ABOUT THIS BEING A CRISIS NOT OF POVERTY, BUT OF PROSPERITY, THAT IT IS A THRIVING ECONOMY THAT IS LEADING ALL OF THESE FAMILIES TO EXPERIENCE THIS KIND OF PRECARIOUSLY.

>> GIVE ME AN IDEA OF WHAT HAPPENS IN A "HOT" RENTAL MARKETS ATLANTA, WHAT HAPPENS TO THE POPULATION THAT HAD BEEN THERE WHEN PRICES GO UP?

BECAUSE I AM ASSUMING THERE ARE MORE DEVELOPERS THAT WANT TO COME IN AND SAY, THIS IS A HOT PROPERTY, I SHOULD BUILD HOUSING HERE BECAUSE I CAN CHARGE A LOT FOR RENT?

>> THERE IS A PHRASE THAT A CASE MANAGER IN THE BOOK, HER NAME IS CARLA WELLS, THAT SHE USES TO DESCRIBE WHAT HER CLIENTS, THE FAMILIES SHE WORKS WITH, ARE EXPERIENCING.

SHE CALLS IT "THE HOUSING HUNGER GAMES. "

THIS IS A SITUATION WHERE, IN THESE HOT RENTAL MARKETS, LIKE ATLANTA, LIKE NEW YORK, LIKE SEATTLE, LIKE NASHVILLE, CHARLOTTE, AND AGAIN, THE LIST JUST GOES ON AND ON, WHERE THESE FAMILIES AND INDIVIDUALS, ARE REALLY --THEY ARE FORCED TO COMPETE FOR THIS RELATIVELY SCARCE NUMBER OF UNITS, ESPECIALLY ONES THAT ARE AFFORDABLE FOR POOR AND WORKING- CLASS RESIDENTS.

AND IT IS NOT JUST THAT THE RENTS ARE UNAFFORDABLE.

IT IS THAT NEW FORMS OF PREDATION AND EXPLOITATION HAVE REALLY FLOURISHED, SO IN ATLANTA, FOR INSTANCE, THERE IS THIS PRACTICE OF CHARGING APPLICATION FEES JUST TO APPLY FOR AN APARTMENT.

NOW, THAT MAY NOT SEEM VERY STRANGE, BUT WHAT WE HAVE -- THIS IS VERY TYPICAL --WHERE IF YOU GO TO APPLY FOR AN APARTMENT IN ATLANTA, YOU ARE TOLD THAT YOU HAVE TO PAY NOT ONLY, SAY, A $90 APPLICATION FEE PER ADULT, BUT YOU ALSO HAVE TO PAY A $200, $250 ADMINISTRATIVE FEE.

ALL OF THIS MONEY IS NONREFUNDABLE, AND YOU HAVE TO PAY IT UP FRONT.

IT IS ALL NONREFUNDABLE, EVEN IF YOU ARE REJECTED FOR THE APARTMENT.

>> IS THERE A DISPARATE IMPACT BY RACE?

>> YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE CLICHES MANY OF US LIKE TO INDULGE ABOUT HOMELESSNESS, OR POVERTY, EVEN, IS THAT IT IS COLORBLIND, THAT IT CAN HAPPEN TO ANYONE.

AND THERE IS SOME TRUTH TO THAT, THERE IS SOME TRUTH TO THE FACT THAT JUST BEING -- JUST HAVING A LOW-WAGE JOB IN AMERICA TODAY REALLY IS HOMELESSNESS WAITING TO HAPPEN.

HERE, IN ATLANTA, A CITY THAT IS NO LONGER A MAJORITY BLACK, A STUNNING 93% OF FAMILIES WHO ARE HOMELESS RIGHT NOW IN THE CITY ARE BLACK.

AND THERE IS AN ENTIRE HISTORY BEHIND THAT STATISTIC.

AN ENTIRE HISTORY OF DISPOSSESSION, OF DISPLACEMENT, OF DISCRIMINATION, YOU KNOW, GOING BACK TO RECONSTRUCTION.

AND THE FAILED PROMISE OF RECONSTRUCTION, THE FAILED PROMISE OF 40 ACRES AND A MULE, AND HAVING PROPERTY.

WHEN THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN, PEOPLE WERE FORCED INTO A LABOR ECONOMY OF LOW WAGES, RENT, AND DEBT.

AND THAT JUST CONTINUED ON THROUGH THE HISTORY OF REDLINING AND RESTRICTIVE COVENANTS, AND EXCLUSIONARY ZONING LAWS.

B MAC THERE HAS BEEN A POLITICAL DIMENSION, I DON'T KNOW IF IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THERE BUT IT CERTAINLY HAS BEEN INJECTED INTO THE CONVERSATION RECENTLY, THE PRESIDENT HAS CALLED AFFORDABILITY "A HOAX," A "DEMOCRAT CON JOB. "

IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE TO SAY THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT HAS A POLITICAL NATURE TO IT?

>> THE OFFICIAL STATISTICS SAY ABOUT 700,000 PEOPLE ARE HOMELESS AND BY COBBLING TOGETHER DIFFERENT DATA SOURCES, I SHOW IT IS CLOSER TO 4 MILLION, SO ROUGHLY SIX TIMES GREATER THAN THE OFFICIAL FIGURE.

WHEN WE LOOK AT THOSE NUMBERS, WE HAVE TO REMIND OURSELVES THAT THIS DID NOT ALWAYS EXIST IN AMERICA, BUT THIS IS A RELATIVELY RECENT EMERGENCE, A RELATIVELY RECENT PHENOMENON.

MASS HOMELESSNESS ERUPTED IN THE 1980s, AND IT WAS THE RESULT OF VERY SPECIFIC POLICY CHOICES.

IT WAS THE RESULT OF THE DECIMATION OF THE SOCIAL SAFETY NET.

IT WAS THE RESULT OF THE WITHDRAWAL OF THE GOVERNMENT, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, FROM LOW INCOME HOUSING AND HOUSING ASSISTANCE.

AND AS MORE AND MORE PEOPLE WERE PUSHED OUT OF THEIR HOMES ONTO THE STREET, OR, AS WAS OFTEN THE CASE, OUT OF SIGHT, IN THESE OTHER SPACES, A NARRATIVE EMERGED, A NARRATIVE EMERGED THAT SAID, "IF YOU ARE HOMELESS, IT IS YOUR OWN FAULT, IT IS THE RESULT OF SOME PATHOLOGY, LIKE ADDICTION, OR MENTAL ILLNESS, OR YOU ARE JUST LAZY, YOU ARE NOT WORKING HARD ENOUGH. "

AND THAT NARRATIVE WAS VERY MUCH PART OF A CONCERTED EFFORT ON THE PART OF THE ADMINISTRATION AT THAT TIME, TO SHAPE PUBLIC PERCEPTION BECAUSE THERE WAS, I THINK, A JUSTIFIED FEAR THAT IF PEOPLE CONNECTED THE DOTS BETWEEN POLICY AND THE SUFFERING THAT PEOPLE WERE EXPERIENCING, THEY WOULD BE OUTRAGED ABOUT THOSE POLICIES AND THEY MIGHT VOTE DIFFERENTLY.

BUT, HOMELESSNESS WAS DETACHED FROM POLICY.

IT BECAME THE OBJECT OF CHARITY, AT BEST, OR VILIFICATION AND CRIMINALIZATION AT WORST.

>> RECENTLY PASSED A BIPARTISAN EFFORT CALLED THE 21ST-CENTURY ROAD TO HOUSING ACT, IT IS SUPPOSED TO EXPAND RENTAL ASSISTANCE, IT IS SUPPOSED TO PROMISE ZONING REFORMS AND CURB BIG INVESTORS.

DID IT GO FAR ENOUGH?

>> I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO SAY THAT WE NEED EVERYTHING ON THE TABLE.

THIS LEGISLATION, IF IT GOES THROUGH THE HOUSE AND IF PRESIDENT TRUMP SIGNS THIS LEGISLATION, WOULD BE THE MOST SIGNIFICANT HOUSING BILL, IN DECADES.

AND I DON'T WANT TO DIMINISH ITS IMPORTANCE.

IT IS IMPORTANT.

WE NEED MORE SUPPLY.

THIS IS LARGELY SUPPLY-SIDE BILL.

IT CUTS A LOT OF, AS YOU MENTIONED, A LOT OF RED TAPE AROUND BUILDING MORE HOUSING.

IT ALLOWS FOR MORE MANUFACTURED HOUSING.

IT ALLOWS FOR MORE INNOVATION.

AND THESE THINGS ARE ALL IMPORTANT.

BUT, YOU KNOW, IT OCCURRED TO ME THAT THIS IS ONLY AS SIGNIFICANT AS IT IS BEING BILLED AS, BECAUSE OF OUR DIMINISHED EXPECTATIONS FOR, YOU KNOW, WHAT OUR GOVERNMENT, WHAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WILL DO, WHERE HOUSING IS CONCERNED.

RIGHT NOW, THERE ARE BETWEEN 4 MILLION AND 7 MILLION AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNITS THAT WE LACK AS A COUNTRY, AND THIS BILL WILL NOT COME CLOSE TO MEETING THAT SCALE ANYTIME SOON.

IT WON'T DO ANYTHING TO ADDRESS THE IMMEDIATE NEEDS OF THE 12.

1 MILLION RENTER HOUSEHOLDS RIGHT NOW, WHO ARE CATEGORIZED AS SEVERELY COST BURDENED, MEANING THEY ARE PAYING MORE THAN 50% OF THEIR MONTHLY INCOME ON RENT ALONE.

IT WON'T DO ANYTHING IMMEDIATELY TO PREVENT RENTS FROM GOING HIGHER, AND HIGHER, AND HIGHER.

IT WON'T PROVIDE DIRECT RENTAL ASSISTANCE.

SO, I THINK WE JUST NEED TO BE CLEAR ABOUT THE FACT THAT, WHILE THIS IS IMPORTANT, BIPARTISAN LEGISLATION, THE TRUE SCALE AND SEVERITY OF THIS CRISIS DEMANDS A MUCH MORE NOT ONLY COMPREHENSIVE, BUT VISIONARY AND COURAGEOUS APPROACH.

>> AUTHOR BRIAN GOLDSTONE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

> >> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, FOR CIVILIANS INSIDE IRAN, THIS IS A PARTICULARLY TERRIFYING MOMENT, CAUGHT BETWEEN AMERICAN AND ISRAELI BOMBS AND THEIR OWN BRUTAL REGIME.

AND FOR IRAN'S POLITICAL PRISONERS, IT IS EVEN WORSE.

ACCORDING TO HER SUPPORTERS, NOBEL LAUREATE NARGES MOHAMMADI HAS SUFFERED A SUSPECTED HEART ATTACK IN ZANJAN PRISON AND IS BEING DENIED MEDICAL CARE.

A RECENT SHORT, ANIMATED DOCUMENTARY DRIVES HOME THE VULNERABILITY OF THESE PRISONERS.

IT FOCUSES ON A FIRE THAT BROKE OUT IN EVIN PRISON BEFORE THIS WAR.

HERE IS A CLIP.

>> NOW, HODA SIJABI DIRECTED THE DOCUMENTARY AND SHE IS JOINING ME NOW.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

WE WANTED TO FOCUS ON THIS BECAUSE IT TELLS A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE RISKS FOR PRISONERS TODAY.

WHAT WAS IT ABOUT THE FIRE, AND WHOSE STORY WERE YOU TELLING THAT MADE YOU WANT TO TELL IT LIKE THIS?

>> HI, CHRISTIANE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

THIS IS THE STORY OF MY FRIEND, LONGTIME FRIEND, WHO IS AN ACTIVIST AND IS OUTSIDE OF IRAN NOW BUT SHE WAS INSIDE OF IRAN AND INSIDE OF EVIN PRISON LEAVING THE FREEDOM MOVEMENT.

ON OCTOBER 15th WHEN THE FIRE HAPPENED INSIDE OF THE EVIN PRISON, WE WONDERED WHAT HAPPENED TO HER AND HER CELLMATES AND HOW THEY SURVIVED, AND WHAT WAS THEIR STRATEGIES TO SURVIVE THAT?

>> AND GIVEN WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM THERE --AND THERE IS ALL SORTS OF DISPUTED ACCOUNTS OF HOW THAT FIRE STARTED, AS YOU CAN IMAGINE -- WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING TO THE PRISONERS INSIDE RIGHT NOW, GIVEN WHAT YOUR FRIENDS HAVE TOLD YOU ABOUT HOW THEY WERE TREATED?

LIKE, THE PRISONER WHO WAS THE LONGEST, THE IRANIAN-AMERICAN PRISONER HELD THE LONGEST SAYS, "THEY ARE THE EASIEST TO GRAB A PUNCHINGBAG RIGHT NOW IN THE HANDS OF A ROGUE REGIME. "

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

>> YES, I WOULD SAY, THE FEELING OF THAT NIGHT WAS JUST THE STORY OF ONE PERSON, ONE NIGHT OF FEAR, DARKNESS, AND UNCERTAINTY.

AND HOW WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM, AND HOW, LIKE, WHAT THEY HAD BEEN THROUGH.

AND NOW, IT HAS BEEN MONTHS, AND THE PRISONERS INSIDE OF THE PRISON, NOT ONLY ARE THEY HEARING BOMBS AROUND THE ENVIRONMENT, AND, LIKE, THE FEAR AND UNCERTAINTY, BUT ALSO, THEY DON'T HAVE, LIKE, ENOUGH CONNECTIONS TO THE OUTSIDE AND THEY CANNOT TALK TO THEIR LOVED ONES.

AND THEY ARE THERE FOR, LIKE, MORE THAN A MONTH.

AND YOU CANNOT IMAGINE WHAT THEY ARE GOING THROUGH.

AND WHEN I TALKED TO NARGES, MY FRIEND INSIDE THE PRISON, SHE WAS LIKE, "EVEN THAT ONE NIGHT WAS ENOUGH FOR ME TO THINK ABOUT IT FOR MORE THAN THREE YEARS, NOW, AND I STILL HAVE THE TRAUMA OF THAT NIGHT. "

AND I CAN'T IMAGINE WHAT THEY ARE GOING THROUGH RIGHT NOW.

>> I KNOW.

AND I WANT TO SHOW ANOTHER QUITE MOVING CLIP, BECAUSE THE FILM WAS REALLY INTERESTING, ALL DONE IN ANIMATION, OBVIOUSLY, WITH SUBTITLES.

SO, THIS NEXT CLIP WE ARE GOING TO SHOW IS OF A BUS RIDE OUT.

THE WOMEN ARE HOLDING HANDS.

IT IS A TIME WHEN THE WOMEN WERE STANDING UP TOGETHER, HAVING BEEN THROWN IN AS PRISONERS.

YOU MENTIONED, IT WAS DURING THE WOMAN, LIFE, FREEDOM CRACKDOWN.

WHAT DID IT REVEAL TO YOU?

LET'S JUST PLAY THIS --LET'S PLAY THIS CLIP.

>> YOU KNOW, DESPITE THE HORROR, IT'S A VERY BEAUTIFUL REPRESENTATION OF WOMEN AND THEIR SOLIDARITY.

WHAT DID YOUR FRIEND TELL YOU ABOUT HOW WOMEN, PARTICULARLY, STICK TOGETHER AND HAVE TO SURVIVE IN THESE TERRIBLE CONDITIONS?

>> THANK YOU, YES.

NARGES WAS LIKE, SHE WAS INSIDE THAT PRISON EVERY, LIKE, BACK IN 2019, AND THIS WAS HER SECOND IMPRISONMENT, AND SHE MENTIONED THAT FOR THIS, SPECIFICALLY, THIS TIME WAS VERY DIFFERENT FROM THE FIRST TIME, HER FIRST TIME BEING IN PRISON, BECAUSE THIS TIME, THERE WAS, LIKE, ALL OF THE CITIZENS WERE FREED AND SO MANY MORE, AND MANY OF THEM, THEY EVEN HAD THE INTENTION OF BEING POLITICAL, YOU KNOW?

JUST, THEY ARE ASKING FOR THEIR BASIC RIGHTS, AND THEY WERE THERE, BUT THEY --LIKE, VERY QUICKLY, THEY LEARNED TO ADJUST THEMSELVES INTO THIS NEW ENVIRONMENT.

AND JUST THIS ADJUSTMENT HAPPENED JUST WITH THE SUPPORT OF, LIKE, HAVING THE SUPPORT OF EACH OTHER, AND HOLDING HANDS, AND SAYING, AND TELLING THEM, FOR EXAMPLE, NARGES WAS THERE FOR A SECOND TIME, TELLING EACH TIME AFTER, "DON'T WORRY, THIS IS THE PROCESS THAT THEY ARE DOING," "THEY ARE TRYING TO TAKE YOU DOWN, BUT DON'T LET THEM DO THAT. "

AND, "BE STRONG. "

FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN SOMEONE WANTED TO CRY, THEY WOULD GO TO THE BATHROOM, BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO KEEP EVERYONE, YOU KNOW, HAPPY, AND SAFE, AND MENTALLY STABLE.

SO, ALL OF THESE DETAILS, OF HOW PEOPLE LIVE IN A VERY HARD SITUATION, TRY TO KEEP THE SAFETY AND THE SUPPORT MORE AND MORE THAN USUAL.

IT WAS VERY INSPIRING TO ME.

>> AND THERE IS ANOTHER OCCASION IN THE FILM, WHERE YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT HER RELEASE EVENTUALLY, AND SHE WAS TOLD, "ON NO ACCOUNT, MUST YOU TELL THIS STORY, DON'T TALK ABOUT THE FIRE. "

BUT, OF COURSE, SHE DID, AND SHE TOLD YOU.

SO, THEY ARE NOT BEING COWED BY THE THREATS AGAINST THEM.

>> YES.

OF COURSE.

IT'S LIKE, IT WAS AFTER SHE GOT RELEASED, AND SO, SHE WAS, LIKE, SHE WAS INTEGRATED A FEW MORE TIMES.

AND HONESTLY, AT SOME POINT, SHE WAS REALLY A TARGET OF THESE REGULAR INTEGRATIONS.

AFTER SHE GOT RELEASED, SHE WAS LIKE, I AM LIVING, BUT I CANNOT LIVE THROUGH THIS, LIKE, GOING THROUGH THIS EVERY FEW WEEKS, AND TALKING TO THE INTEGRATORS ABOUT WHAT I AM DOING, AND MY DAILY LIFE.

AND DEMANDING THE FREEDOM IS MORE IMPORTANT TO THEM THAN THEM, PERSONALLY.

>> IT IS VERY POWERFUL, EVEN THOUGH IT IS A DIFFERENT SITUATION, IT IS REFLECTIVE TODAY.

"THAT NIGHT," DIRECTOR, HODA ELATAWI, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

> >> WE WANT TO END ON A JOYFUL NOTE, CONGRATULATIONS FOR BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA TO QUALIFY FOR THIS YEAR'S FINAL IN THE WORLD CUP, BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA HELD THEIR NERVE TO WIN ON PENALTIES, SO GOOD LUCK IN THE U. S. , MEXICO, AND CANADA THIS SUMMER.

AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND GOODBYE FROM NEW YORK.

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